Melissa Corkum interview
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Low Demand Parenting Podcast, where we drop the pressure, find the joy, and thrive even when it feels like life is stuck on level 12 hard I'm Amanda Diekman, author, autistic adult, and mom of three. I'm not here as an expert, but a fellow traveler. Together, we're learning how to live more gently, authentically, and vibrantly in this wild parenting life
Welcome to the Low Demand Parenting podcast, Melissa Corkum. I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks so much for having me.
This is gonna be a really, I think, for me, and I think everyone listening, a really helpful conversation because you are wading into some waters that a lot of people try to avoid and just not look at, not talk about.
And this season of the podcast, we're really getting into a lot of the nuance and [00:01:00] complexity around our parent experience of parenting. It's kinda like shifting the spotlight from all the tips and tricks and how-tos of parenting our kids to what it feels like to be in our parenting shoes the experiences that we share that are often so marginalized and shamed that we can't even talk about it with ourselves, with our partner, with our therapist, and really glad that we can have these kind of conversations here so that everybody listening feels a little bit lighter, a little bit more seen and witnessed.
So we're gonna talk about blocked care, and I wanna start by giving you an opportunity to tell us what blocked care is and w- what's happening inside of a parent when they say, "I love my kid, but I don't really like them right now," or I don't like them at all." What, what's happening in there?
Yeah. What a brave thing to be able to say out loud in a safe space.
[00:02:00] And yeah, so blocked care is I've been describing it like the metaphor of your phone, right? When your phone battery is fully charged, you get access to all of the features, right? You get, you can use multiple apps at the same time. You get all your notifications. If you have post 40-year-old eyes like me you can make it as bright as you need to-
as big as you need to, all the things. And then when the battery starts to drain and it gets dangerously low, your phone flips automatically probably to battery saver mode, and there's a whole bunch of things that- It deems as non-essential that kind of stop working. And so our nervous systems are the same way.
When we are at capacity when we're fully charged we have capacity to do all the things. We can feel curious, we can feel empathetic, we have lots of compassion, maybe more patience. And then as, whatever the stressors are in our life drain our battery, and if we don't know how to intentionally complete that stress cycle [00:03:00] and keep our battery full and recharge it, then our body goes into low battery mode, and it starts picking things that it doesn't feel like are essential.
And unfortunately, one of those things are the caregiving systems. It's if we're gonna survive- ... like ourselves, our nervous system is meant to protect our survival- ... then it doesn't really care about other people, quite frankly, right? Because that's non-essential to your own survival. You can't care about people if you yourself don't survive.
And so blocked care is that. It's this like self-protective mechanism in the nervous system that starts to shut down those caregiving systems because our nervous system thinks we might not survive. And I think the most important part of that definition that I want parents to hear- ... is that this state of being in blocked care isn't your fault, right?
Your nervous system is working the way it's supposed to, and we can't stay here forever, right? Because we do have a responsibility to our kids and our [00:04:00] people.
Yeah. How do you... S- sometimes people will use the metaphor of like a person who's in starvation but they're nursing, and that their body will continue to prioritize the making of the milk for their baby over their own survival systems.
And sometimes that metaphor gets played out broader. Oh, like that's just how we are as parents, that we give and we give and we always put our kids first, and we'll endlessly self-sacrifice for their good. And that kind of gets named like that's just how we are as parents. And I think what you're na- but that doesn't speak to a lot of people's lived experience, which is what you're speaking to.
No, there are times where y- we disconnect from our kids out of survival, or where we feel like I, I can't really be in this parent role. Like I just, all I wanna do is escape from it. So how do you understand those two things? Are they in conflict with each other? Is there some kind of a cultural norm thing happening that's- To suppressing [00:05:00] lived experience.
What do you think about the kind of endlessly self-sacrificial parent trope? I think we do that endlessly self-sacrificial parenting thing because there is a cultural norm associated with it, because we hear things like love should be sacrificial, and then we end up in blocked care. And because we...
That's not sustainable. That metaphor of the mom at some point in time, she won't be able to do that anymore, even though she's prioritizing, her body's prioritizing making milk. At some point, there's nothing left, right? Yeah. And so I spend a lot of time helping parents feel permission to put their own nervous system first, and it feels so counterintuitive to- what we've been taught. Your kids need you, your, your responsibility is to them and their wellbeing. [00:06:00] And we can't... I tell people, we have to be the stable foundation. I have this upside-down pyramid I use in presentations where the top layer is child behavior, the middle layer is child needs.
We're still, packing lunches, taking kids to school. We're doing the kind of executive functioning things that they need. And then the bottom layer, that little tiny point at the bottom, is our needs as parents. And most parents live that way until they can't anymore, right? For those of us who are parenting kids with really challenging behaviors, it feels like that's where all our energy is going to.
And then it's and we still have to feed them and get them to where they need to be. And then it's if there's anything left, we might, get a hot cup of coffee in the morning. I don't know. It's not even the big things, right? It's not even get to the gym or have our own doctor's appointments.
And- ... my background is in engineering, and that's not a stable shape, right? You can't live life in that upside-down pyramid. Any little thing that happens in life, like you get a flat [00:07:00] tire or your ice maker in your refrigerator breaks just feels like that's literally the end of the world, right?
Yeah.
And so I tell parents, "You have to flip your pyramid so that the bottom layer is your needs." Like- ... those come first, and from there, it's like putting your oxygen mask on first. Like, how many metaphors can we have, right? From there, then we can continue to meet our kids' needs well and proactively.
And the behaviors don't go away. I wish that were the case. But what parents tell me and what I've found true in my life is they just don't feel as impactful. We're able to put them in their place that they're not running our lives.
Okay. I completely resonate with that upside-down pyramid and reversing it.
I wonder how taking that kind of nervous system can't, not, won't lens for the parent helps us see what's going on in those moments where we're like, "I just don't wanna be [00:08:00] doing this anymore," which is such a hard... Like you said, it's a very brave reality to look at in the mirror. So how do we use that mirror to make it easier to witness what's happening?
A lot of us, I think, have come to this understanding because the research is getting better, and it's one of the beauties, one of the good parts of social media is it's a little bit easier to disseminate new and better information. And so what you're talking about in terms of can't, not, won't, I'm seeing more and more of that, that we're culturally trying to make this shift to look at child behaviors in a different way.
And I work with a lot of parents who are embracing that, but they're n- not seeing the parallel for themselves, right? That we are the same way. If we have a regulated nervous system and we feel connected, then we're gonna show up [00:09:00] better as parents. Just like when we provide regulation and connection for our kids, they show up differently.
And to have the same kind of compassion for ourselves as parents instead of that shame and guilt- ... that we have been able to cognitively wrap our mind around for our kids. So I think those parallels are really interesting because I see them also in the work you do, Amanda, like the low demand.
I think it started perhaps with how do we lower demands for our kids? Because we can see that they're overwhelmed, their behaviors are a result of their own dysregulated nervous system. But I think also we can turn that around to be like, what's low demand for us as parents, right? Like, how do we lower the demands for the entire family system?
Yeah. And otherwise, it can develop a deep resentment. Wow, why do you get to feel safe [00:10:00] while I'm over here- Killing myself to take care of- Yeah, juggling
all the plates to make sure you feel safe,
right? Yeah. Yeah, and you don't wanna feel resentment of your own child.
And you're not a bad person if you do. It's a very natural reaction. Like you said, it's if of course your nervous system would react that way. I wonder if you have practices or learnings of what that's felt like to put your own needs as that- Yeah ... biggest part of the triangle.
Yeah. I think, so I'm able to look back over years where I'm an empty nester. My kids are 19 to 28. And so I think there's lived experience here where I came to this through my own season of burnout.
I I am my own ideal audience. And there were points in time where I didn't have the [00:11:00] option to not put my needs first. I couldn't get off the sofa to do the thing people wanted. I couldn't do the grocery shopping. I, I just... There were so many balls and plates falling all around, despite what I wanted to be doing.
And what I learned is that n- all the things that I feared would happen if I didn't attend to all the little details and keep all the things going A lot of those didn't come true. The world kept spinning. Yeah, sometimes a kid was angry, and again, we've been in seasons where everyone's safety was needed to be prioritized, but, there were times when someone would get really angry with me about not doing the thing, and I still didn't have it in me, right?
And- ... and we were able to move through those seasons, and I was able to notice oh, we could get through that, where I did [00:12:00] say no to a lot of things that I didn't want to, where I... And so then it became okay what if I intentionally Gave my best version of myself towards parenting and what would I need to do to make that happen?
I think also coming to this realization of what I had control over and what I didn't, and I was putting a lot of energy into trying to control and influence behaviors. And I think there was a gift in knowing, oh, if I turn some of that energy to my own nervous system, the return on investment is so much more rewarding.
I can give myself 30 minutes and feel night and day different Versus dragging a kid to 30 minutes of therapy they don't wanna go to. Yeah. [00:13:00] And so being, like, looking at that and being like, "How do I wanna use that 30 minutes? Maybe I do wanna take a therapy break because it's so much effort to get the kid out the door, to get them to comply."
And The amount of progress they're making in that demand that we're putting on them, what if I took that 30 minutes for myself and I could show up so much better, and maybe even be able to playfully get them to do whatever the OT wanted them to do or whatever? I just- ... the way I was using my time and where I was investing energy and thinking about it, again, it's this engineering brain, right?
What's the return on investment in where I'm putting my energy? And it's always been better when I invested in myself, and then the trickle-down effect of that to the rest of the family is notable.
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Would you say that the experience of being in burnout, how does [00:14:00] that interrelate with the idea of blocked care?
Does one supersede the other? I know a lot of the parents who listen to this or who come to Low Demand come because their kids have gotten into their own burnout where just life comes to a sort of screeching halt, is the way I think about it. But it's very common for parents to follow their kids into burnout because of the overall demand on their nervous system, and I wonder if blocked care is a piece of the burnout experience or if it's a separate thing that overlaps with it.
Could you speak to the interrelationship of those two things?
Yeah, I think the lines are really blurry and gray, but I think burnout applies to a lot of different scenarios outside of parenting, right? We can be burned out at work. We can be burned out for a certain type of activity. We can, So I think they're closely related.
Sometimes I use them interchangeably because people know what [00:15:00] burnout is, and they don't always know what blocked care is. I didn't name blocked care. It was named by Dr. Jon Baylin, and I think the Venn diagram piece that's specific to blocked care when I'm talking to parents is, I think some of the nuances of it have to do with the fact that we feel stuck in this relationship with our kids.
If we're burned out at a job, we have the choice to go get a new one, mostly, right? There's certain choices that we can make when w- in a larger context in burnout, and I think what one of the things that sets blocked care apart is- Legally, for our minor children- ... we're responsible to that relationship.
And if that relationship, in any other parallel [00:16:00] relationship, whether it be a romantic partnership or a coworker or whatever, if it was this difficult, we would probably just get out of it. And we don't have the same kind of choice in parenting, and so that layer, I think, compounds the stress and also requires a different, Fortitude for having to overcome it because getting out isn't one of the options to resolving it, and so we have to figure out how to care for our nervous systems while we're in it.
And that's a trickier part. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really making me think about how for parents trying to practice low demand, blocked care can feel like it- that's their breaking point is they're like, "I'm trying to show up with compassion for my kid. I'm trying to really listen to [00:17:00] their needs underneath the behaviors, but I just don't have access to that kind of compassion and curiosity.
It's just not there. I don't have it." And so then they feel like then I can't do this approach," which, can then spin people into trying to control behaviors even more, 'cause that's the only avenue to try to feel better. I wonder how we can access more compassion and curiosity when we're in a state of blocked care.
What does that way forward looks like from that stuck spot? A lot of times I think when people come to me to solve block care, they're expecting me to force them to look at their relationship with their child. Because so much of, so many of the parents I talk to come from this kind of connected parenting model, where relationship is really important.
[00:18:00] And to our previous part of our conversation, we have them start with themselves. We have them start with this really simple exercise called points of joy, where we have them list as many things as they can think of that bring them joy, and they're the small things. The warm sun on your skin, the taste, the sip of hot coffee.
And then we ask them to intentionally try to check off seven of those things a day, and it can be mult- ... if you have two cups of hot coffee. It can be multiple things. There's not, it's not about the rules, right? It's just about this intentional practice of noticing joy, and it does something in our nervous systems to help our n- it communicates to our nervous system we have some control in our life.
Even when it feels like so many other things are out of our control. We can insert joy in our life. Those little things can fit even in the hardest of seasons. We can notice those things. And that starts to [00:19:00] crack the nervous system open just a little bit and a little bit more margin, and then we can add, stack maybe a little, another practice on top of that.
And It has to start there, and then the very last step is then what... how can we compassionately look at this relationship between us and our kids, and can we bring more compassion to looking at behaviors and... But we can't start there. It's just, it feels too hard.
I love that permission, and I also totally resonate with what you're naming, that's where most people expect you're gonna start.
It's a, maybe a version of the just try harder kind of idea. If I was just better at this, if I just tried harder, I'd probably be able to be compassionate. I could really, I could do all the t- things that you're coaching me to do over here in the behavior side. And I love what you're saying is no it's not a matter of trying harder.
We gotta go all the way back to the baby steps and rebuild a sense of stability in your nervous [00:20:00] system or connection with yourself even- Yeah ... rather than connection with your kid. And I'm thinking of the parent who's listening and they're like, "Yeah, I'm right there. I'm at the, I want, I wanna be in connection.
I wanna be in..." I put on my website the two words ease and joy, because I think those are things that we feel the least of in safe, they feel so elusive in this season. Yes. And people will be like, "Why?" Ease and joy? What? That is not possible. And I believe that it is, and so part of it is a hope casting.
It doesn't just have to be, like, less terrible. It can actually be good. But I'm thinking that can also be hard for people that are ex- expecting themselves to just like, "Oh, if I just was better at this, then I could experience ease and joy, but I can't, and so I hate it and I feel stuck here." W- what are some of those small, [00:21:00] doable starting practices?
I love the finding seven things. That feels right on target. W- what does it look like to begin to make this shift without forcing themselves to do more? Because I think that that's- Ultimately that's the high demand approach Yeah what does it look like to do this kind of care without piling more on our plate?
Yeah. It's like just doing less, right? Giving ourselves permission to do less.
Yeah.
Before we hit record, we were talking about the power of just naming this. I see so many people just have more margin from being like, "Oh, I'm not a terrible person." The shame is cr- is taking up a lot of space- Yeah
in the nervous system, right? So naming it and getting into a safe community where you can tangibly feel like you're not alone. This is not work that people want to do with other parents because of [00:22:00] the shame, and I've been doing it long enough to know that it's almost imperative to do this work in a safe group, even if it's just one other parent that you're, like, doing a workbook with or...
but there's something co-regulating in our nervous systems around that lived experience and knowing that you're not alone. And so just putting yourself in proximity, either virtually or in person, with someone else who you can trust understands what this experience is like- ... I think is a big part of this.
The points of joy. And the other thing I think is na- this is another naming practice, naming what you thought your parenting journey would be like versus what it is now, and that gap between expectation and reality is a space to grieve. Like, whenever there's a gap between- ... expectation and reality, there's something to grieve, and I think unresolved [00:23:00] disenfranchised grief is robbing us of a lot of space for ease and joy.
What are shame and un, what did you call it? Disenfranchised grief. Disgrief, yeah. Yeah. Shame and grief that we don't feel ready to feel are taking up a lot of real estate in our nervous systems that are squeezing out the things that we might want to feel more of, whether it's ease and joy, or whether it's curiosity and connection, or whether it's freedom and having choice.
All of those things, there's just not room for them when we're so colonized by-
Yeah ...
shame and grief we're not able or ready to feel. If there's one thing that you want someone who's currently in blocked care and doesn't know it to hear right now, what is that?
I think That you're not [00:24:00] alone, that it's okay to look curiously at the, whatever your true experience is.
Parents will say their true experience to me and then immediately apologize for it. And our experience is our experience, and I, so I think we haven't done anyone any favors by categorizing good and bad emotions and experiences. And, what, the G.I. Joe knowing's half the battle, right?
We have to- ... be able to look at our experience, look it in the face, and accept it, and then figure it out. But if we're trying, again spending all this energy trying to deny it, that's not helping anyone. I think the other thing is just this knowledge, hopefully this feels more like encouragement and not discouragement, but it's a process.
I do this work professionally. I work with parents. I speak. I train unblocked care, and I am not [00:25:00] permanently over my blocked care- ... for a couple of my children. And so it's not a one-and-done deal, right? We have seasons. It cycles in and out. When I notice blocked care in myself, that's a data point for me to say, "Okay what are you not doing for your nervous system?
Why are we here again?" Going back to the basics again. So I think there's this misnomer sometimes of oh, we overcome our blocked care, and then we wave goodbye to it and we walk away. And especially if you're still actively parenting and I'm here to also say that active parenting doesn't stop at 18, even though I don't have any full-time people here with me.
Yeah, that just be kind for yourself, whatever your journey is- ... that there's space for all of that.
Thank you for naming that about the experience of parenting young adults who still need a lot of [00:26:00] co-regulation or who don't, and then you have your own parenting experience of being separate from them.
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with us. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Amanda.
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I'm Amanda. Remember, it takes great strength to let things go. I'll see you next week
